Hello! Welcome to our new podcast.
Download MP3Hello, and welcome to Science of the Times podcast. I'm Syma Khalid.
Tim:And I'm Tim Colson. And we're finally doing it. Yep. Isn't it exciting?
Syma:It is.
Tim:Honestly, we've been talking about doing this podcast for ages, but turned out not to each other. But then we knew one another. We might come on to how we met later. But we are so excited to be doing this. And our motivation is we both really enjoy science, and we like teaching science, and we like explaining it to, anyone who's interested, don't we?
Tim:And
Syma:Absolutely. And and our our idea is for the audience is that it's for everyone. So whether you're a science junkie or you haven't done science since your school day, since your GCSEs or, you know, just perhaps a bit beyond that, it's the idea is to keep it nontechnical, but engaging and keeping as many of the details as we possibly can.
Tim:And what we're gonna do is we're gonna at the start of each episode, we're gonna discuss a topic between us, and we're gonna ask some of the questions. And we're gonna choose newsworthy topics, the things that have been in the news or that come up into the news fairly frequently. And we're gonna interview some of the world's leading scientists about it to kind of dig in and find out a little bit more. And if you're listening and if there's a topic that you'd like us to cover, you should you should drop us a line on the email, which you can find in the link below.
Syma:Sure. And we'll we'll give out the email at the end maybe too. So
Tim:Can you remember it?
Syma:I will by the end of the podcast here. Come on.
Tim:So So that's an excellent start. So some of the things that we're we're thinking about doing is we're gonna do something on, DNA, I think, originally, aren't we? For one of the first ones.
Syma:Yeah. Absolutely. So DNA encodes all of the material that makes us who we are. And it turns out that, here in The UK, we have some of the people that have done that developed the latest technologies that make it all possible to sequence DNA at a very tiny with very tiny devices. And we're going to have some of these people, telling us all about their work and importantly, actually, what might be within the scope of the work in the future.
Tim:And then another topic, the way we're lining up people to talk about is this amazing spacecraft that flew all the way to a meteor, landed on the meteor, picked up some material, came back to Earth, and they've just been analyzing that material. And it's remarkable what they've found. So we're gonna talk to someone who's been heavily involved in that project. We're gonna talk to someone else about what this means for the emergence of life, something that happened 4,000,000,000 years ago. And then football?
Syma:Yep. Absolutely. We have to have football. So Tim and I are both, big football fans. He's a Spurs fan.
Syma:We won't hold that against him.
Tim:And you support?
Syma:I support Liverpool, so all is good. Yeah. And we're going to have someone on the show who's developed a series of tests from which it seems that one can tell if someone is going to go on and become a a great elite footballer.
Tim:We're actually gonna trial those tests ourselves, in the park.
Syma:So That's foolishly.
Tim:So, and we'll have a you can take bets on who's gonna win, and it won't be me. And then another one so I I'm a kind of a mad dog owner. I own a dog called Wuffler. He comes to work with me. And another thing that a lot lots of people like pets.
Tim:So they're gonna do one on dog domestication, how dogs got domesticated and other pets as well. And why we build these relationships with them and and actually how those relationships can be quite good and quite positive for us. So it's gonna be broad ranging. We're gonna have quite a lot of, quite a lot of topics, but that's just a taste of the first few that we're gonna do.
Syma:Yeah. And as Tim said, if there's things that people want to hear about and want us to talk about, then please do email in. We're, yeah, we we have our open and broad remit.
Tim:We do. Now you might be wondering where we're sat. And, this isn't either of our homes or our offices, but we're both based at, Oxford University. And we're in the we're in the beautiful, Fellows Library in Jesus College, Oxford. And, and and we're both researchers here.
Tim:We're both professors, and we both study different topics. So, Saima, I wonder if you wanna tell me a little bit about I'm obviously, I know that you started life as a chemist, but now you're actually interested in, bacteria. So tell us, how did you end up here in Oxford?
Syma:So, I think it's a a slightly unconventional route in some ways in that, as a child, I always wanted to be a footballer, but it was clear, I guess, fairly early on that that wasn't going to be the case. And then eventually sort of my parents wanted me to study medicine, and I chose the a levels that were appropriate for that. So chemistry, biology, maths. And as I was doing those, I discovered that it was really chemistry that I liked. And as I went forward, it was the interface between chemistry and biology.
Syma:And then sort of went through the university system at Warwick, came to Oxford as a postdoc after my PhD, and just discovered bacteria. And it I guess it for me, it's always been endlessly fascinating that we're these complex beings. We're made up of hundreds and thousands of cells. Bacteria are a single cell, and we still can't find antibiotics to beat these things. How can that happen?
Syma:And so it's that really, I think, that really excites me.
Tim:So it's the chemistry of life and how things interact and is that is
Syma:that the way you do it? Because when all said and done at the very, very fundamental level, it's the movement of atoms, you know, when it boils down to. And I think it's that for me that's interesting.
Tim:So do you have a lab coat? And, like, do you have dry ice going everywhere and, like, bumps and burners going? Like, you're a proper scientist.
Syma:No. You're setting me up here, folks. You know I'm not, Tim. I am a proper scientist, though.
Tim:So what do you do on your day to day, you know, your your your day to day research?
Syma:So I'm a computational biochemist, which means I use the principles of physics, biology, and chemistry. And if you like, put them all together to make movies. So predict how things will move, in in the body or inside cells, but I don't actually go into a lab. I don't have a white coat. I don't sort of get my hands dirty with real chemicals or real biological samples.
Syma:Everything is done inside a computer.
Tim:And but you can can some of them go and test what you're predict and what you find? Can they go and, I don't know, use microscopes or X rays to work out what's going on to see whether your models are any good?
Syma:Yeah. Absolutely. So both of those things. So for example, just like we can take x rays of, our bones, it turns out we can take x rays of proteins, tells us a bit about what those proteins look like. I can take that information, make a movie, make it work, and make it do something, which then someone in the laboratory can test.
Syma:And Oxford's great for that because in biology, in chemistry, in biochemistry, I have lots of collaborators who actually go into the labs and test those things, and then we go backwards and forwards.
Tim:And so can you find you can find out different types of of ways that molecules are interacting and behaving that that people might not have picked up in the lab, and then they can go and look for that, can they? So you can you say we think that this is going on?
Syma:Yeah. Absolutely. Works both ways. So it can be that the people in the lab say, hey, Saimo. We found some strange phenomenon in the data that we're collecting, and we don't understand it.
Syma:We think that maybe this molecule is sticking to this one. We didn't expect that. Is that happening? So it's maybe sometimes with mass spectrometry, for example. And then So
Tim:what's mass spectrometry?
Syma:So molecules are ionized. They're charged. Yeah. And then the signal that you detect is the mass of that molecule compared to its charge. So you get a ratio.
Tim:Okay. Right?
Syma:So you know what it basically, you know what its mass is. And if two molecules are stuck together, you will know the masses of them, but you might not know exactly where they're interacting with each other. But I would then do a molecular simulation and say, I think this is what's happening. And so we would go backwards and forwards.
Tim:Okay. So that's where the mass spectrometry bit comes from.
Syma:Yes.
Tim:And then so the when they stick to one another, is that through a sort of charges, the electrons interacting, or is it, kind of, you know, where the electrons are around the atoms? I mean, you know, the
Syma:At the fundamental level, it's all driven by electrons. Right? It will be. So it's either that, you know, you have regions of where electrons move away and the nucleus is exposed, and so that region becomes positive and it attracts to just like we know with magnets. Right?
Syma:You get positive and negative poles attract. Yeah. The same thing happens here with molecules.
Tim:I think I remember this from, so polar and nonpolar bonds. Is this does that ring a bell from chemistry?
Syma:It does, Tim. Okay.
Tim:I've remembered something from a long time ago. Yeah. Good. And then so can you but I thought one of the things about atoms is we don't really know where the electrons are because they atoms. So does that make it complicated to actually predict how they're going to interact?
Syma:It's a really good question. It does and I cheat. So what I do is I say What
Tim:a surprise.
Syma:Harsh. So I say that in my world, an atom or a group of atoms are like squidgy balls.
Tim:Yeah. Okay.
Syma:Okay? And there's no explicit electrons. I just stick a charge on.
Tim:It's
Syma:negative or positive with a magnitude. And so I make an approximation, and it turns out it works really well. Now it doesn't work for everything, but for the things that I'm interested in, the bacterial membranes and the bacterial cells, it works really well, and it matches up very well with the experiments. But you're right. If we were to look at every single electron, it's not actually possible.
Tim:Yeah. Okay. So can you use so can you work out then which sort of drugs are gonna be able to cross bacterial membranes? I mean, you know, I'm asking I'm I I I'll ask it in a rude way. Is there any use to this, Rissel?
Syma:You're asking in a rude way? What's a surprise. I'll get my own back. You we can get insights. The problem, of course, is that in real biology, there are things that we may not have taken into account because we don't know it's there.
Syma:There'll be protein there'll be things that get in the way. There might be a potential difference across the membrane. It might be charged under certain conditions. The back when the becomes stressed, for example, it might change its composition. There's all sorts of complications in biology that, in the computer simulation, it's very difficult to, put all of those details in.
Syma:But we can certainly get insights and we can get rank orders. So we can say this molecule is easier to get across than this one.
Tim:Okay. Okay. So when we're talking to people on the more kinda chemistry and physics end, you're gonna be asking the hard questions, aren't you?
Syma:I am. So now let me flip that to you, Tim.
Tim:You know what I'm saying? Gonna be asking? Yes.
Syma:So so what you know how I'm going you know what I'm going to ask you. Can you tell us what sort of what sort of scientist you are? I know you're a real scientist. We've established that.
Tim:So I don't have a lab coat either, but I'm I'm interested in understanding how the natural world works and how ecosystems work. So I tend to think from, you know, I'm I'm not looking at cells or molecules like you are, not what's going on within organisms, but I'm looking at the whole organism and how they interact with one another. So for example, I might be interested in why we see changes in the numbers of particular animals. So one of the things we work on is wolves. So why in some years in Yellowstone National Park, which is a a a place where I work, is do we see lots of wolves, other years there are fewer?
Tim:What are the causes of that? And what do the wolves what's their what's their role? How do they impact the whole ecosystem? Because obviously wolves eat elk, elk eat grass. If your wolf numbers go down, elk are a type of deer.
Tim:If wolf numbers go down, you're gonna get fewer elk. You might get you'll get more elk. You might get less grass. And all of these things kind of, all these kind of things work their way through the whole ecosystem. So, you know, you go and shoot half the wolves, all sorts of changes, some of which you might never have thought about about check about change.
Tim:And I try and build math so I like going to the fields. Yep. Pretty hopeless field work, to be honest. But I I like going and I like thinking about these things. And then a bit like you, what we do is we'll collect data, we'll analyze those data, and then we'll construct models, on the computer to make predictions about what might happen in the future.
Syma:So when you said that it's how animals interact with each other, but that also includes how they interact with the environment around them.
Tim:That's right. So, I mean, the environment is kind of a a word it's an all encompassing word. So a wolf's environment might include the number of animals that it can eat. So, elk, mule, deer, pronghorn antelope, they're lucky. They're kind of very they're much faster than wolves.
Tim:So, they're probably only someone across a a sick one. Things like skunks, they'll even hunt, believe it or not. So, that's part of the environment. But the other part of the environment is things like the weather. And people, of course, are worried about climate change at the moment.
Tim:And in Yellowstone, we're starting to see changes in the amount of snow. Wolves like snow. They're good at running through it. Their prey's less good at running through it. And so, yeah, we're interested in in how all sorts of aspects in the environment, the other animals, climate, but also things like disease.
Tim:And so there's a disease called chronic wasting disease, which is coming into, into the the, mule deer that live on the edge of the park at the moment. So we're interested in in how an emerging disease and that's a bit like mad cow disease for deer. How that, how that's gonna impact the whole system.
Syma:So from what you said, I can see how you can provide explanations from from observed phenomena. But is there a predictive element to the work too?
Tim:It's a good question. And we we try to make predictions. Can't predict the weather, we don't know what it's gonna be next year, our predictions, there's a range of things that could happen. Mhmm. And we sort of say we think that these outcomes are gonna be more likely than the next outcomes.
Tim:And then, you know, and and and we don't go and bet on those predictions because they're they're they're not they're not they're not, it's almost as as, you know, it's predicting football scores is hard. It's even harder than that. Unless you're a Spurs fan, in which case, we predict you're gonna lose next, next game, I suppose.
Syma:You might not. You might not. It's against us. So I think it's so in that sense, it's similar to what I just said about the drugs and the membranes. It's that complexity that we're unable to account for fully in both of our works, it seems.
Tim:I think that's right. And I think it's the complexity that that, is really exciting in our field. So and the way that I think of of science is you sort of go from, you know, the the physical end where you're thinking about how, atomic nuclei and electrons are interacting, protons and neutrons, where we've got a fairly good idea of how they interact Yes. Through to molecules where it becomes a little bit more complicated, through to cells it's even more complicated. And then that complexity takes us right the way through to whole ecosystems.
Tim:Yes. But despite that, I think it's absolutely remarkable what science has has taught us and can tell us.
Syma:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it it sometimes seems unbelievable that those discoveries have been made given in a way how little we know.
Tim:No. I think that's right. And I mean, I think it kinda comes back to one of the motivations why we both wanted to do this podcast is I think we're all scientists at heart. It's we're often you know, in our day to day lives, we'll see something or we have a problem to solve, and we'll try and solve it through trial and error. Yes.
Tim:And you work out what works and what doesn't work, and you kinda hone in on the solution. And that's what all scientists are doing. It's coming up, you know, we but but we put words like we're posing a hypothesis. It's like Yeah. What?
Tim:And and some of those hypotheses in the way that that I think you're you're talking about it are are mathematical hypotheses in in in in things that we then go and test. But that's one of the things I want to get across as we interview and talk to people, that it's about kind of coming up with a question
Syma:Yes.
Tim:Trying a few things to see what works, and then you find out some facts about it. Eventually, you kind of you you or or you certainly get support for that that hypothesis, and you learn a little bit more. And
Syma:Absolutely. And then but then when you put it into the context of other people working in the same area in other labs or other parts of the world, and that comes together. So you see slightly different angles, and I think that's something else that we're hoping to bring in bring in onto the podcasts to have interesting stories, but maybe people coming at slightly different angles to those.
Tim:Well, I think also people's a little bit finding out a little bit about the scientists themselves on occasion as well and asking them, you know, what it it it's kind of interesting. I mean, how did you you know, I obviously, I everyone loves wolves. Oh. But molecules? You know?
Tim:So you I mean, give us a little bit more example. Was there a moment when you you you love chemistry and from a an an early age, you said? And is that because it was kind of you could it it was something that wasn't as messy as a bacteria or I mean, what you know, it was things that that made good logical sense? Or
Syma:Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I was good at chemistry.
Tim:Yeah. That was out.
Syma:But it as a child, it sort of gives you confidence. I mean, I when I started school, I actually you know, I struggled because I couldn't actually speak a word of English. Oh, really? And yeah. That's right.
Syma:So it it took a a good and sports was an easier thing to do. But it took a while to get in, and chemistry's I guess it had that good balance between being quantitative and qualitative. And so I was good at it, and I started enjoying it. And then it was, you know, I didn't really care about making synthetic molecules or plastics or metals. It was the biology of, you know, the chemistry of biology that excited me.
Syma:And so I really got into that. And I've always been interested in sort of video gaming and art. And then suddenly when my undergraduate project supervisor, he arrived from what reading to Warwick. And he offered a project in being able to combine computing, you know, sort of graphics and chemistry. It sort of blew my mind, to be honest.
Syma:And, I'd say that it sort of I was bitten by the bug at that point as a as an undergraduate, and it just stayed with me.
Tim:We'll have to see some of the videos you produce actually in one of these podcasts.
Syma:Love to. That
Tim:would be good.
Syma:You know me. I'm always happy to show you, videos of my work. But I wanna go back to the wolves. Yeah. I don't think it's that obvious, Tim, that everyone loves wolves.
Syma:So how did that start?
Tim:So well, it's interesting. So, I was, I didn't really know what I wanted to I I was a science junkie from a young age, and I actually had a place to read maths at university. Okay. I think at Warwick, if I remember right. It's so long ago now.
Tim:I can't remember. But I went off to Africa for a year off and I was teaching in a school in the middle of nowhere. And I went for a walk one day and I saw a herd of antelope impala. And I thought, I don't wanna be a a mathematician. I want to be a a biologist.
Tim:Really? But this was before the age of email. So I wrote on airmail paper to my parents and said, I don't wanna be a mathematician. And Wow. And, I I want to be a biologist.
Tim:And if I'd been them, I think I'd have just pretended the letter never arrived. But, I said, can you apply for me to go to university? And I had to do biology rather than math. So they did. And, and, everyone they wrote in the letter, actually, it's quite funny.
Tim:They wrote in the letter, Tim can't come to interview because he's in Africa. And and I think, because I'd already got my grades. So I think four of the universities wrote back and said, can Tim come for interview on these dates? And they're like, but York actually read it and said, no. We're off from the place.
Tim:So I went to to York where I studied biology. But I always enjoyed the maths, and I still use the the maths a little bit. I wouldn't say I'm a very good mathematician, but I, you know I think you are. I enjoy.
Syma:Yeah. Is that is that common for biologists to have a strong interest in mathematics?
Tim:More so. But I think quite a lot of biologists, end up going into biology because they like the complexity of it. And also I think at A levels, certainly when I went through, biology was the least the least mathematical of the sciences. So physics, you know, was was was quite mathematical. Chemistry was a bit more mathematical.
Tim:I I I shouldn't tell you this, but I hated chemistry at school. I did chemistry a level. Had a chemistry, had a chemistry set at home Right. And I failed to make anything explode, almost like which is my primary aim.
Syma:At this point, Tim, I'm actually thinking, why are we friends? So we sport opposite football teams. I love chemistry. You hate chemistry. So maybe it's something we could ponder.
Tim:I like it now. I hated being at a school. Now I mean, I think it's I I know. I think it I I think, chemistry is amazing. And I think the fact that you can create so many different molecules from a relatively small number of atoms.
Tim:And I particularly in biology where you can form these chains of carbons with nitrogen and, you know, and I I just think that's absolutely astonishing and absolutely, absolutely remarkable.
Syma:And within that, we can encode, you know, all the blueprint for life, which again brings us back to DNA and where will,
Tim:you know,
Syma:future future podcasts.
Tim:And so, I mean, one of the other things that, you know, obviously you enjoy and I enjoy, which is why we're here is, is, is kind of science communication.
Syma:Yes.
Tim:Whether it's lecturing or, or, or talking to the press or what have you. So any, any, any kind of, any kind of favourite lectures that you love to give the undergraduates or, or kind of favourite dealings with the press that you've had over the years?
Syma:I think in terms of communication, the one thing that really sticks to my mind and sort of I I think about actually quite a lot is, so before coming to Oxford, as you know, I was at the University of Southampton, and I did a a Pint of Science talk. And so for those who are who don't know what Pint of Science is, it's whereby one goes into a pub, and it's been prearranged with the pub, of course, and, give a short talk about science to the the people drinking in the pub often than if you can manage it with a pint in your hand. And so I did one of these on anti the, you know, the rise of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. And after I gave the talk, an elderly couple came up to me and said that they're you know, they've always been told that you must finish your course of antibiotics. But that was the first time anyone had ever explained to them why.
Syma:And and and they were really grateful. And it it it it's something that's so obvious to me because I'm in that field. And it was shocking in a way that no one has bothered to explain that this is why you must do it. And actually So why why must you finish? Well, they were under the misapprehension that they would become resistant.
Tim:Of course. Okay. And so Not the bacteria. Yeah. Not the microbes.
Syma:And so we you know, you finish the course of antibiotics because if you, you know, if if you don't, you don't kill all the bacteria, the ones that survive, then slow actually, not even too slowly, begin to develop resistance. They find ways to combat and overcome the effect of the antibiotic.
Tim:What if a what if a few of them are resistant already to that antibiotic? If you keep taking it, don't you aren't you just breeding a population that's kind of more and more resistant?
Syma:Yes. So that that that is a real that is a problem. So we're we're still trying to understand how these resistant mechanisms develop. But a big problem is abuse of antibiotics or misuse of antibiotics, which does lead to development of, or faster development of resistant bacteria. And but it the interesting thing about bacteria is they're incredibly aggressive.
Syma:Mhmm. They're the most aggressive known organisms, so they have lots of ways to kill each other, actually. And so that's something that people are thinking to use in the future.
Tim:So is that why is that why many of them have anti, have abilities to, you know, or chemicals that kill other bacteria? And so what we're looking for some of that, you're sometimes looking for some of those, or or people people working on, drug development often look in bacteria and
Syma:and other animals.
Tim:And that's what they're looking for, Those killer chemicals.
Syma:Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. And oftentimes, those chemicals will be harmless to us, but they will kill the other bacteria. They won't kill the the bacteria won't kill themselves because they have immunity.
Syma:They're very clever.
Tim:No. That's fascinating, actually. That's really fascinating. So, I mean, talking about point of science, you know, our wonderful producer, Rich, he didn't he didn't bring a point along for us tonight, did he? That was a bit he was a bit remiss over there.
Syma:Next time.
Tim:So
Syma:so I'm going to ask you now. So you've done lots and lots of work with the media and communicating science. Is there a favorite story that you have? You must have many, Tim.
Tim:Believe it or not, this wasn't set up. But, it was something within the university, and it's, it's very, very surreal. So, for a while, I was head of the biology department. And the University of Oxford, for long and complicated reasons, actually got a lot of Kafka's paper, Franz Kafka, who, you know, where this is. I remember this.
Syma:I know where this is going.
Tim:And so I was, they they were gonna celebrate on on the on the anniversary of his death, they were going to celebrate his life, and they wanted each bit of the university, so the medics, the scientists, the social scientists, and those people working in the humanities, to to do something to celebrate it. So I organized a couple of events in the Natural History Museum where we we looked at to discuss to insects because one of Kafka's, most remarkable books is called The Metamorphosis when a guy called, Gregor Sancer wakes up as a cockroach or a giant insect, a venom a verminous insect. So, often in, translated in in, in English to cockroach. So, those those were a great success. The public came along.
Tim:And after one of these, I was asked whether I would read a little bit of The Metamorphosis in the beautiful Sheldonian Theatre. We should do a live podcast there and get the audience in at some point. In the Sheldonian Theatre. And I said, yeah. That would be great.
Tim:And someone said, I've got a giant cockroach outfit if you'd like to wear it. And so it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it was a really hot day. And so I hid the cockroach outfit behind a screen. And when it was my turn to read, just before I went behind the screen to put this thing on, it's huge with empty and e and legs. And I hadn't realized the screen was backlit.
Tim:So I went behind it and pulled this cockroach out for on so the entire Sheldonian could see arms and legs and antennae going everywhere. And I came out, and I read it. And then I don't know what people thought was going on. And then I went back behind the the the screen and did the striptease where they could see this. But the real media so then this kinda went a bit nuts on social media, on on x and and and LinkedIn even, bizarrely.
Tim:So I get a phone call the next day from the Oxford Mail and said, we saw you dressed as a cockroach. Our lead story today happens to be about a cockroach infestation on the services of the M 40, a local motorway. Would I care to comment? So I did. And then the headline in our local rag, The Oxford Mail, said, something along the lines of, professor who lectures in cockroach outfit speaks out on the M 40 services infestation with no explanation of why I was wrong with this photo of me.
Tim:So that was probably the most ridiculous story. But, but,
Syma:I That's a good story. It's a very good story.
Tim:And I think that shows that I mean, you know, you can end up science can be fun as well, and I think we have to kinda have fun. Because I think I think people often think of of science and sometimes scientists as sort of being being kind of pretty serious, you know, grey hair. I don't have any hair, and yours is blue.
Syma:It's going great. It's
Tim:just going. So I think, you know, so, I think I think actually, and I think this is changing, but I think everyone realises that anyone can be a scientist now and that we don't have to.
Syma:Yeah. Neither what neither of us come from a particularly conventional sort of route, I guess, in a way.
Tim:And I think, you know, and and certainly you go to conferences now and it's certainly changed over the last kind of three decades that I've going. And and so, you know, it's, a a a huge range of people from all sorts of backgrounds.
Syma:I think so. And that's as it should be because it brings in the talent from from everywhere.
Tim:And even, you know, the the undergraduates who we teach, they're all brilliant, and they're they're from all over the place now.
Syma:Yep. All around the world in different backgrounds. It's great.
Tim:So, I think it's probably time to wrap this one up, and we'll be back in a a week or so. We're gonna try and do these, every week or two. We'll see how it goes. And, I hope you've enjoyed it, and we'll look forward to seeing you seeing you soon.
Syma:Yeah. And we'll be on with a guest next time, so you won't be
Syma:subjected to just me and Tim
Syma:rambling about football. Thank you.
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